Where are you heading?

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Dyandod
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Re: Where are you heading?

Post by Dyandod »

Lukipela wrote:Interesting. Do you have any experience with calling people "nigger"? I mean minorities tend to appropriate racist terms among themselves, but that rarely means that they appreciate outsiders using them. Would any other americans like to weigh in on whether "nigger" is nowadays an accepted word in your language? I'd have thought it wouldn't be with your history, but what do I know?

But what you are saying is that you don't think that the idea that someone without a penis can't take responsibility isn't really sexist? Or that it isn't sexist because it's a joke based on that assumption? Or are you seeing it as ironic?
Yeah, it's much more common for blacks to say it to each other. But whites can say it to blacks if they're friends with them. I guess you could call it a friendly insult. (Of course, if a politician ever said it on TV....)

You know, I'm having trouble figuring out why I don't think it's sexist. I just.... don't. 2-23-6 was using it as a phrase of encouragement, and that's what I treated it as. It's really only sexist if you notice and you care. I guess that does sound a bit cold, though.
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Re: Where are you heading?

Post by chenjesuwizard »

Dyandod wrote: You know, I'm having trouble figuring out why I don't think it's sexist. I just.... don't. 2-23-6 was using it as a phrase of encouragement, and that's what I treated it as. It's really only sexist if you notice and you care. I guess that does sound a bit cold, though.
As a feminist I found it offensive as I saw it as some kind of suggestion that the ability to make decisions was linked to having a penis, which is wrong. I felt that I should point this out as I feel I should do everything to remove even subconscious sexism from our society, as much as possible.
I understand the comment was not made with sexist intent, but that did not stop it from being sexist.

And on the point about jokes. I don't really find discriminatory jokes funny, since they are just playing at stereotypes that are not true. I guess this all comes from being part of a minority in which bisexuals are often joked about being promiscuous and unable to be in a monogamous relationship.
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RTyp06
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Re: Where are you heading?

Post by RTyp06 »

I found the "Grow a penis..." comment a bit crass but not too terribly offensive. I have a construction background and it just sounded like a man talking to another man.

Lukipela: Having two kids seems the sensible thing to do in a world with 7 billion occupants. Also, I wish we had some of that "commie" socialism over here. Our country is turning into a complete plutocracy.
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oldlaptop
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Re: Where are you heading?

Post by oldlaptop »

RTyp06 wrote: Lukipela: Having two kids seems the sensible thing to do in a world with 7 billion occupants.
As a matter of fact the trendline is already heading for a notable population contraction sometime this century (Japan is on the cutting edge of this demographic trend, with Europe on its heels). Even the Third World with its massive population growth is moving in that direction.
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Lukipela
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Re: Where are you heading?

Post by Lukipela »

You know, I'm having trouble figuring out why I don't think it's sexist. I just.... don't. 2-23-6 was using it as a phrase of encouragement, and that's what I treated it as.[/quote]

See, this is quite interesting to me. It sounds as if your response is a pretty emotional one, where you feel it isn't sexist but you can't explain why. In the same way, you felt that you should speak up in defence of the term. But you can't really give a good reason, it's just instinctive.

Note that I'm not criticising you, we all act on gut responses all the time, it's rare that we think about why.
Dyandod wrote:It's really only sexist if you notice and you care. I guess that does sound a bit cold, though.
And this part is more of how you think, or so I think. Do I understand it correctly then, that on an intellectual level, you'd say this is/might be sexist, but on an emotional level you fell it isn't? If that is the case, why do you think there is such a difference between what you feel and think in this case. Again, not criticising, just asking out of interest.
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Lukipela
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Re: Where are you heading?

Post by Lukipela »

RTyp06 wrote:I found the "Grow a penis..." comment a bit crass but not too terribly offensive. I have a construction background and it just sounded like a man talking to another man.
Yeah, I hear this stuff on site all the time. Funny thing is it is completely acceptable and yuo're a big baby if you say anything about it. Except if a woman comes in, in which case she either needs to prove that she is man enough, or if she is a higher-upper it is suddenly not appropriate anymore.
RTyp06 wrote:Lukipela: Having two kids seems the sensible thing to do in a world with 7 billion occupants. Also, I wish we had some of that "commie" socialism over here. Our country is turning into a complete plutocracy.
Yeah, that's another reason for just two kids. Like oldlaptop says most industrialised countries are going in this direction anyway. Plus, even in socialised countries kids cost a lot of money.
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Eth
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Re: Where are you heading?

Post by Eth »

Dyandod wrote:
Lukipela wrote:Interesting. Do you have any experience with calling people "nigger"? I mean minorities tend to appropriate racist terms among themselves, but that rarely means that they appreciate outsiders using them. Would any other americans like to weigh in on whether "nigger" is nowadays an accepted word in your language? I'd have thought it wouldn't be with your history, but what do I know?

But what you are saying is that you don't think that the idea that someone without a penis can't take responsibility isn't really sexist? Or that it isn't sexist because it's a joke based on that assumption? Or are you seeing it as ironic?
Yeah, it's much more common for blacks to say it to each other. But whites can say it to blacks if they're friends with them. I guess you could call it a friendly insult. (Of course, if a politician ever said it on TV....)

You know, I'm having trouble figuring out why I don't think it's sexist. I just.... don't. 2-23-6 was using it as a phrase of encouragement, and that's what I treated it as. It's really only sexist if you notice and you care. I guess that does sound a bit cold, though.
I lived in a prodominently-black neighborhood for a few yeara, and I agree with what you said. "Nigger" is used a lot between African-Americans, and is no big deal. It can be a serious insult if used by a white person, unless that person is good friends with the one they're speaking to.
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Lukipela
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Re: Where are you heading?

Post by Lukipela »

Eth wrote:I lived in a prodominently-black neighborhood for a few yeara, and I agree with what you said. "Nigger" is used a lot between African-Americans, and is no big deal. It can be a serious insult if used by a white person, unless that person is good friends with the one they're speaking to.
Okay, so what you're saying is that "nigger" is in no way an accepted part of everday vocabulary unless you're either part of a minority that has appropriated a slur for their own use, or counted as one of them? In that case I'd find the reasoning behind this simile:
Dyandod wrote:Just because you mention gender doesn't mean something is sexist. A lot of people still call blacks "niggers" here in the U.S. (at least in the cities, particularly the inner cities) but nobody's offended unless they're in a bad mood or they're strangers. You can definitely interpret the words "grow a penis" to be sexist, but I didn't see anything in the delivery to suggest it was anything but a wisecrack.
Pretty broken. It's essentially saying "using sexist vocabulary is just as good as using racist vocabularly which is quite common*

*Only applies if you are part of the group who originally suffered from this racism, or closely connected to them, so in no way everday speech but a pretty specific circumstance that wasn't present in this particular conversation.
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Eth
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Re: Where are you heading?

Post by Eth »

Well, one could argue that the use of the word "nigger" between black people is equivalent to using the phrase "grow a dick" between two males.

I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to be moderating this conversation in some way, but I guess it's all pretty restrained an academic...
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Lukipela
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Re: Where are you heading?

Post by Lukipela »

Eth wrote:Well, one could argue that the use of the word "nigger" between black people is equivalent to using the phrase "grow a dick" between two males.

I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to be moderating this conversation in some way, but I guess it's all pretty restrained an academic...
I disagree. Two unprivileged people appropriating a slur used against them by people who have more privilege is pretty different from two privileged people affirming that their sex is desirable compared to that of unprivileged people. A valid comparison would be two women telling each other not to be such pussies, since that is an actual slur used against a group that generally has less privilege. But that's not what we were talking about.
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