sedodes active?! What gives?!

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kingschosen
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Re: sedodes active?! What gives?!

Post by kingschosen » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:30 pm

sedodes wrote:
kingschosen wrote:People don't change, bla bla bla
I'm not surprised you said this, actually. It's easy enough to ask anyone on the street if they are the same person they were 5 years ago and get a resounding, "No" from all but the most neanderthalic unaware jackasses. Everyone strives to improve themselves, the world, or SOMETHING in their life, and even the simple act of that persual - successful or unsuccessful as it may be - affects your personality. If people never changed we'd all still be naked and shitting on ourselves, and humanity as a whole would be beating each other to death with sticks and stones every day in order to get the best food.
Deductively, I thought you could figure out what I was saying, so I'll be clearer. Also, that "blah, blah, blah" you used to replace what I said was actually key. Please read thoroughly.

Yes, people can change; however people do not change. Like I said, in order for someone to change their behavior they have to change it. Actively changing your thought process or a lifestyle is hard, and most people don't have the fortitude.

Your eloquent retort about pooping, sticks, and food is not related to what we are talking about. That's a conditioned response to outward stimuli. Again, I'll be clearer.

If you throw your clothes on the floor everyday, and everyday your wife harps and nags for an hour about it, eventually you'll have a conditioned response... whether that be picking up the clothes or just learning to ignore her.

Changing is when instead of throwing your clothes on the floor you actively choose to do something different with them... not because it's easier, not because you don't won't to hear your wife, and not because you're looking for a different response. You change because you do not want to do that behavior anymore. Again, YOU have to actively choose to not do it.

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Fossaman
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Re: sedodes active?! What gives?!

Post by Fossaman » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:14 am

If you throw your clothes on the floor everyday, and everyday your wife harps and nags for an hour about it, eventually you'll have a conditioned response... whether that be picking up the clothes or just learning to ignore her.

Changing is when instead of throwing your clothes on the floor you actively choose to do something different with them... not because it's easier, not because you don't won't to hear your wife, and not because you're looking for a different response. You change because you do not want to do that behavior anymore. Again, YOU have to actively choose to not do it.
In your example, clothes throwing leads to negative reinforcement. Now, it's possible that I'm some sort of freakish neo-human that behaves in a logical fashion, but I generally seek to avoid negative reinforcement whenever possible. It's good mental hygiene. This part of your logic strikes me as flawed:
not because you don't won't to hear your wife
Generally speaking that is exactly why you should change your behavior in this case, unless you've got some weird passive-aggressive thing going on, in which case you've got bigger problems than clothes on the floor. It's part of the system of compromise that allows people to function as groups.

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kingschosen
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Re: sedodes active?! What gives?!

Post by kingschosen » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:36 am

*facepalm* @ "don't won't".

That's what I get for typing too fast and not proofreading.

Anyway, Fossaman, no the logic is not flawed. We do things all the time that lead to negative reinforcement. The clothes thing is just a personal example.

Think about it. Why do some diabetics eat more sugar than they are supposed to when they know the consequences? They are negatively reinforced every time; however, they repeat the same circle over and over because the in their mind the consequences are not bad enough to justify a change in behavior. Also, keep in mind, just because the consequences are catalytic to a change doesn't mean that person changes.

Again, for instance, diabetes. If that diabetic eats too much sugar and nearly dies, his consequences may enforce a change. This change isn't because the person wanted to change, it is simply because he was forced to change because of circumstances aka a conditioned response.

However, when that diabetic does not want to eat sugar anymore for the simple reason of not wanting to, then he has actually changed, and he has actively changed who he is.

That's the difference.

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Angelfish
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Re: sedodes active?! What gives?!

Post by Angelfish » Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:41 am

sedodes wrote:
kingschosen wrote:People don't change, bla bla bla
If people never changed we'd all still be naked and shitting on ourselves, and humanity as a whole would be beating each other to death with sticks and stones every day in order to get the best food.
In the basis, we haven't changed. Being naked and shitting ourselves has evolved into watching porn and trolling on the internet, and we use modern weapons to beat eachother to death each day in order to get the best oil.
O wait, they don't beat us to death, we just beat them so they give us the best oil ;).
Human nature hasn't changed :).

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Zeracles
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Re: sedodes active?! What gives?!

Post by Zeracles » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:43 am

I see the need for change as a sign of weakness, so I strive for a state of changelessness, myself.
sedodes wrote:I miss venting my frustrations upon deserving jerkasses like Zeracles and his little slaphappy equally 'tardtastic arch-nemesis to be completely honest, though since marriage I'm afraid I'd do it too much and too severely to be considered an acceptable member of the community.
If you ever get over your fear, bring it on :twisted: I miss your delusions of grandeur and pretensions of abnormally high intelligence. Well, just your pretending generally.
Lukipela wrote:
Dabir wrote:Is WASP an acronym or just capitalised for emphasis?
He means a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, although things would be much more amusing if he meant Wind Atlas Analysis and Application Program
Got another one for you. Weber Advanced Spatial Perception, which I've heard of by meeting a relative of said Weber.
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sedodes
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Re: sedodes active?! What gives?!

Post by sedodes » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:40 pm

1) kingschosen, the only reason ANYTHING changes is because of external stimuli. At its most basic this can be seen as a physical law of the universe, and while human thought itself may not directly follow the most basic of physical laws the only reason your thought processes continue to function (and change) is because by living you're stimulating neurons and bla bla bla. Come up with a point that isn't contradicted by something as simple as grade school science itself if you want to argue with me.

2) Angelfish, you can make any comparisons you want, but the fact that we've formed advanced societies and have advanced the arts and sciences to their current levels is evidence enough that we aren't the same poo-flinging monkey offshoots we started out as. Given, not all decisions and societal (r)evolutionary directions are beneficial, but they are progressions and will eventually serve to weed out the weakest... which will eventually be humanity as a whole. Nothing lasts forever, gotta love entropy.

3) Zeracles you're about as useful as Dick Cheney's opinions at this point. Arguing your vapid ideas and primitive thought process serves me no function anymore - not even that of amusement when I make you look as ridiculous as a 500lb. drag queen. The simple fact that you simply go on and on and on no matter how outclassed you are speaks volumes about how blatantly incapable you are of just sitting down, shutting up, and letting the adults WITHOUT brain damage speak amongst themselves. Now put on your helmet and go play on the slide, daddy's got more important things to do than play paddy-cake and peek-a-boo with you.
The most important thing to realize in life is that anyone can justify anything.

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kingschosen
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Re: sedodes active?! What gives?!

Post by kingschosen » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:05 pm

Wow, you're really not getting it.

I'm not arguing change from a scientific standpoint, and I understand why change happens. Quit using the Strawman fallacy to try and berate a point that I'm not making.

Change, adaption, evolution... whatever you want to call it comes from a conditioned response to outward stimuli. We have both said that. We both understand that. Good.

Now, understand the point I'm trying to make about changing who you are in order to better gel with someone else. Human relationships and human emotions, if haven't noticed, do not function methodically like other scientific mediums. Changing habits and responses to situations does come natural (conditioning); however those responses don't always produce a positive outcome. That is when we have to actively change who we are, and how we respond to situations.

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Angelfish
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Re: sedodes active?! What gives?!

Post by Angelfish » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:06 pm

sedodes wrote:2) Angelfish, you can make any comparisons you want, but the fact that we've formed advanced societies and have advanced the arts and sciences to their current levels is evidence enough that we aren't the same poo-flinging monkey offshoots we started out as. Given, not all decisions and societal (r)evolutionary directions are beneficial, but they are progressions and will eventually serve to weed out the weakest... which will eventually be humanity as a whole. Nothing lasts forever, gotta love entropy.
Arts and Sciences? Those poo flinging monkey offshoots invented fire, the wheel and made drawings in their caves!
We haven't changed that much.
Besides, if we both lived in the times of Da Vinci and Michaelangelo, which is quite a bit of time ago, we'd have more of a feeling of cultural and technological high standing than we have now.
If you put us both in a medieval castle we could still have meaningful and rewarding discussions with the lord and his servants, and if you put us in ancient egypt we could still have meaningful and rewarding discussions with the residents there ;).
So no, I don't think we've changed much. We're still the same :).

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Lukipela
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Re: sedodes active?! What gives?!

Post by Lukipela » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:26 pm

Angelfish wrote:and if you put us in ancient egypt we could still have meaningful and rewarding discussions with the residents there ;).
You'd just about have time to say "I say now fine gents we're from the future!" before they'd start yelling "Jaffa kree!", shoot you with their Zatnikatels and drag you in front of Horus or Ra or whichever goa'uld who'd start interrogating you on how you managde to pass through the chapa'ai without being detected. Good luck with that.

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Angelfish
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Re: sedodes active?! What gives?!

Post by Angelfish » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:48 pm

Lukipela wrote:
Angelfish wrote:and if you put us in ancient egypt we could still have meaningful and rewarding discussions with the residents there ;).
You'd just about have time to say "I say now fine gents we're from the future!" before they'd start yelling "Jaffa kree!", shoot you with their Zatnikatels and drag you in front of Horus or Ra or whichever goa'uld who'd start interrogating you on how you managde to pass through the chapa'ai without being detected. Good luck with that.
See, this proves that we haven't changed. Today they say 'Allah Akhbar!' and do the beheading thingy to you ;).
Luckily, we, the civilized west, have more civilized methods of killing our adversaries (or do we?) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0 (not for the faint at heart and prolly not work-safe)

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