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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Slylandro gasbags
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krulle wrote:
Yeah. Go ahead and try. Even your fast starship will be taxed doing a mission all around the map and be back in time to catch the Pkunk going back. Think you can find a solution for that, especially with your track record of visiting every planet, moon, and solar system?

I'm looking forward to see how you solve this conundrum.

And no, I won't spoiler you by telling you whether it is possible or not.
But do pack an suffient amount of fuel cells!

This is one of the main reasons I felt it was necessary to perform my cryogenic experimentation. I have found myself between a rock and a hard place; if I proceeded as normal, at some point I’d have to drop everything to stop the Pkunk from reaching the Yehat, but on the other hand, if I simply went straight over and used the final persuasion, I’d be out of luck the next time they decided to migrate. I will admit my solution is simply a stall tactic, so I’m therefore optimistically hoping I’ll find an alternative before time runs out for our bird-brained friends. Who knows? Maybe I'll find some Fruit Loops to give them during my travels!! :lol:

Now that all of this Pkunk stuff is behind me for now, I already have some ideas for how to proceed, but I’ll get into that in more detail after I attempt to solve the problem of somebody showing up and ending the ZFP’s Frungy season a little earlier than expected. For now, I’ll add that I’m depending on the Melnorme for fuel refills, and I’m planning on travelling much further than before… perhaps much, much further.

I’m also planning on investigating the mysterious hole in space that the Melnorme and Spathi told me about. It’s just a hunch, but I suspect there may be a crucial link between that dimensional portal, the Arilou, and the ability to jump from place to place, as told to me by the Pkunk:

“[…] Anyway, I see in your future, that you will be jumping across the galaxy through dimensional doorways which are at your beck and call. This ability you shall receive from a mysterious, and yet somehow I sense, lovable alien race, called ArilouLaleelay, or LalilouArilay, or LoopylooHappyday, or something like that. […]”

If I’m able to procure something to that effect, it should greatly cut down on my travel times. Also, I’ll still be able to search systems and planets with a fine-tooth comb, but as always, I’ll have to do so via the time portal reset method, and only when I’m following up on any pertinent leads. However, I have a feeling I won’t be doing as much scouring as I had to perform while I was intently searching Mycon space for egg shells.

_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” - Khan Noonien Singh


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:43 pm 
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Arilou wiseguy

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Ah yeah, zhe LoopylooHappydays... Indeed, if you played Melee to practice your skills as combat pilot, you know that they can jump ahead at anytime. I think Mr Hayes told you about their ability to travel through HyperSpace REALLY fast.
HappyDays indeed.
But why would they share this secret with you, when they never shared it with the Alliance, despite the greatest needs during the war?


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:57 pm 
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Slylandro gasbags
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krulle wrote:
Ah yeah, zhe LoopylooHappydays... Indeed, if you played Melee to practice your skills as combat pilot, you know that they can jump ahead at anytime. I think Mr Hayes told you about their ability to travel through HyperSpace REALLY fast.
HappyDays indeed.
But why would they share this secret with you, when they never shared it with the Alliance, despite the greatest needs during the war?

The Arilou? Do you mean these guys?

Image
(photo taken from Star Control 1 Victory Screen)

Ok, I’ll play along. :) This is where my unrelenting record-keeping tendencies come in handy, but in order to properly present my own perspective, let’s examine what I know so far, so here’s everything I’ve learned concerning the Arilou Lalee’lay, beginning with the quotes that mention them (with significant portions marked in space man green) including their question prompts:

CAPTAIN ZELNICK - “The Arilou.”

COMMANDER HAYES - “I’d like to think I’m not a bigoted person, Captain, especially when it comes to allies, but there is just something about those Arilou that gives me the creeps. One thing I’ll say for them, though, they possess some technique for moving REALLY fast through HyperSpace. They never let us know what it was, but it sure beats the pants off our fastest ships.”

CAPTAIN ZELNICK - “The Umgah.”

COMMANDER HAYES - “It’s unfortunate that the Umgah fell to the Ur-Quan so early in the War, because I suspect we would have gotten along well with those big blob creatures; at the very least it would have been entertaining. We know them a bit better than most races, because they were eager to talk with our ships before, after, and during battle. The Arilou intimated that they had a relationship with the Umgah before the Ur-Quan arrived, but I don’t know any details.”

CAPTAIN ZELNICK - “Were there any alien races who weren’t in the War?”

COMMANDER HAYES - “None that we had formal contact with. The Chenjesu implied that they had met 2 other starfaring species, one near the Giclas constellation, and the other directly coreward from Procyon. The Ariloulaleelay once mentioned having ‘some fun’ with an alien race in Draconis, but like so much else with the Arilou, they never revealed the whole story. I am sure there are hundreds more alien races in our galaxy, but beyond what I’ve told you, your guess is as good as mine.”

CAPTAIN ZELNICK - “How did the War with the Ur-Quan start?”

COMMANDER HAYES - “Earth got involved late in the game, in 2112, when the Chenjesu arrived in our solar system for the first time, so let’s back up a few years to 2098, when the Chenjesu’s super-sensitive receivers detected a strange signal from the Ophiuchi constellation. Though even the Chenjesu didn’t know it, it was the first sign of the Ur-Quan’s arrival. The Ur-Quan, having detected the presence of many sentient species, were beaming out an exulting hunting cry. The first direct evidence of the Ur-Quan’s intent was the sudden conquest of the Umgah, a solitary, though not unfriendly, species in the Orionis constellation. The Chenjesu, distraught by the invasion, were further angered when the Ur-Quan turned their fleets on the hostile but weak Ilwrath race. A hastily assembled defense force of Mmrnmhrm and Chenjesu vessels turned the Ur-Quan fleet aside, but the invader moved into Spathi space, rapidly subjugating that race. With each new conquest, the Ur-Quan fleet grew larger as it added slave vessels to its ranks. Earth joined the Chenjesu to form the Alliance of Free Stars at about the same time as the Androsynth stars fell to the Ur-Quan armada. Before the ink was dry on our agreement with the Chenjesu in 2116, a new race appeared in orbit around the moon and asked for admittance to the Alliance, it was the Ariloulaleelay. The timing seemed unusual and the Arilou were definitely weird, looking like Saucer Men from Mars, but we were too busy cranking up our moth-balled heavy industry that we didn’t really pay it much attention at the time.

CAPTAIN ZELNICK - “Is there any indication that aliens visited Earth in the past?”

COMMANDER HAYES - “Yes, there is. Aside from the Precursor relics we have found on Earth -- often in museums, mislabeled as ‘modern art’ -- we have discovered disturbing evidence of much more recent visitations. Perhaps you are already aware that during the mid-to-late 20th century, there were uncountable UFO sightings, as well as dozens of reported ‘encounters’ with alien life forms. Although we can discount many of the reports as wishful fabrication or traumatic-translation, the military authorities of that time kept a secret record of the ‘incidents’ which were legitimate. In each such case, the aliens are almost identical in appearance. They have white skin and minimal facial features, except for huge, almond-shaped eyes, which are often described as ‘glowing’ or ‘luminescent’. This description fits, almost perfectly, the Ariloulaleelay. In most of the legitimate encounters, the people involved described being physically examined or modified by the aliens. In some cases, unusual pregnancies occurred, and in almost every instance, there were repeat visitations, as though the Ariloulaleelay were doing ‘check-ups’ on their subjects. We never got the chance to confront the Ariloulaleelay about what they did to us and why. I wonder if we ever will?”

CAPTAIN ZELNICK - “I will pay for useful data on alien races.”

MELNORME - “The Arilou Lalee’lay are a mysterious race of IDF beings. IDF meaning, Inter-Dimensional Fatigue. They do not reside in this galaxy, or in fact, anywhere in this universe. While it is true that the Arilou are rarely seen far from the Columbae star group, they do make regular, secret visits to your world, and have done so for centuries. Ever since Earth was slave-shielded, they have focused their attention on the humans aboard the starbase, many of whom are now members of your crew. Though the Arilou Lalee’lay always smile and are never overtly hostile, we believe that they have a secret agenda which somehow involves your planet, Earth. These secret plans may or may not cause grief and woe to you Earthlings.”

CAPTAIN ZELNICK ALT - “I’ve always wanted my fortune told. Would you mind?”

PKUNK - “Not at all. You are an open book to me. Ahhh, how quaint your little life is. Anyway, I see in your future, that you will be jumping across the galaxy through dimensional doorways which are at your beck and call. This ability you shall receive from a mysterious, and yet somehow I sense, lovable alien race, called ArilouLaleelay, or LalilouArilay, or LoopylooHappyday, or something like that. Also I sense that you will have 14 children, and die at an early age.”

CAPTAIN ZELNICK - “I’m afraid I’m still not exactly clear on who you are and where you’re from.”

ORZ - “You are a *silly* *camper*. I am always Orz. If I was not Orz, then I would not be, but of course I am Orz. We are from the *outside*. Also the Arilou *quick babies* are from *outside*. It is the same, but not. Orz are from *below*, Arilou are from *above*. Orz does not like Arilou. Arilou are too much trouble. We can not have *parties* when Arilou always *jumping in front*. It makes Orz *frumple* so much. These are *fat* words. Do you want to play this some more?”

CAPTAIN ZELNICK - “I’m afraid I’m still not exactly clear on who you are and where you’re from.” (2nd time)

ORZ - “I will tell you again the many *pieces*. You do not know *special things*. Here is some. *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many. You are so *sticky*. You cannot *slide* like Orz from *outside* to *inside* and *in between*. It is sad, but Orz can *pull* the *campers* after being *connected*. This is soon. Orz are trying to *pull* the Androsynth, but they are so *silly*, they do not want. Arilou can *slide*. Also Taalo. Many can *slide*, but Orz are better of course.”

CAPTAIN ZELNICK - “I’m afraid I’m still not exactly clear on who you are and where you’re from.” (3rd time)

ORZ - “Here is *good news*! Six or nine *pieces* ago, myself the Orz did not even *smell* your *level*. Can you believe? It is so silly! It is such a *happy town*. Then the Androsynth made some *slippery places* and then Orz can *smell* it. It *smells* so good Orz are surprised! I, myself pushed the *fingers* into the *new town* and there are so many *campers*. First the VUX, but they are such *silly cows* they ask so much about the Androsynth we must *dance* with them. Then we can *smell* the Arilou. Again they are *jumping in front*. It is always! Nnnnggaaahhhhh! There is *juice squeezing* and then we are not so *frumple*. Finally we find you, the *happy campers* and the Taalo *playground* for sliding through. Where are the Taalo? There they are. It is too much fun. We are too happy, in this *slow time* *heavy space*. It is a better *level* for games. This is the everything story. Now you know.”

CAPTAIN ZELNICK – “So what happened to you at the end of the war?”

COMMANDER TALANA - “When we first met your people, we’d been wandering through the stars for almost seventy-five years, ever since the death of Syra... our home planet. We joined your Alliance, and I use the word ‘joined’ loosely, because we had no other choice. The VUX were raiding our slow Habitat columns, and we had nowhere else to go. We fought for survival, Captain. Nothing more. When your people on Earth were defeated, the Alliance just plain fell apart. The Yehat and Shofixti retreated to their native stars and didn’t want us to follow. The Arilou, those creepy little weasels, just plain bugged out -- vanished...leaving us alone, with nowhere to go, smack in the path of the oncoming Ur-Quan Armada. What were we supposed to do? Fight? Two-thirds of our Habitat fleet was unarmed! Many aren’t even super-luminal. We were going to be annihilated if we resisted, and we knew it. When the Ur-Quan surrounded us and started giving orders that all ended with, ‘Or Die!’ we took them at face value. We obeyed. In exchange they gave us Gaia, the planet below. It’s a beautiful world, Captain. I wish I could show it to you. So don’t misunderstand me. We love our freedom as much as anybody else, but we’ve got a good life here, and we don’t want to lose it.”
---------------------------
Now I’ll try to connect a few dots, but keep in mind this is just thought projection and shouldn’t be considered anything more than simple conjecture.

First of all, Hayes, the Pkunk and the Orz mention the ways the Arilou travel; Hayes talks about them moving very fast through space, the Pkunk told us we’d gain the ability to jump through dimensional doorways from them, and the Orz (though difficult to understand) speak of them *jumping in front* and *sliding* from the *outside* whereas jumping in front could be referencing teleporting and sliding might be travelling through dimensions... or they could be one and the same, as well as the entire process itself.

As just mentioned, their origin or location according to the Orz is from the *outside* but also from above as opposed to from *below* where the Orz reside. (The Orz also don’t seem to like the Arilou very much.) Not very specific, but the Melnorme provide some clarification by describing the Arilou as being Inter-Dimensional Fatigue beings, claiming that they aren’t even part of our universe, so to speak.

At the end of the War, they also did what pretty much everybody else did: They turned tail and ran when the Alliance was crumbling under the heavy weight of the Ur-Quan onslaught, with the main difference being how they were able to evade Hierarchy enslavement, for reasons mentioned earlier.

However, when their presence has been witnessed, it is often times near the Columbae Constellation (other sightings have been in Draconis or in Umgah territory – Orionis, both of which are relatively near Columbae) which just so happens to be amongst Chandrasekhar and Circini; all of which are star groups associated with the dimensional portal, as told by the Melnorme and Spathi:

CAPTAIN ZELNICK – “I wish to buy information about current events.”

MELNORME – “As you know, there are weaknesses in the division between dimensions. For example, your vessel uses such weaknesses to enter HyperSpace. However, there are other weak spots in the galaxy which lead to yet different dimensions. One such portal exists nearby, between the Chandrasekhar and Columbae constellations. The portal opens only a short time each month starting on the 17th. Since we have never entered the portal, we can give no more information on this subject.

CAPTAIN ZELNICK – “Hi folks, what’s new?

SPATHI – “Very little, I’m afraid. We’ve just been watching the stars. You know, actually there was something that happened last month on the 17th; we saw a new star appear between the Circini and Chandrasekhar star clusters. We watched it and watched it -- for three days, we just watched it. Then it went away, vanished, just like that. I hope it comes back.

There’s obviously more to the story, but the only other pieces I have so far are Hayes (and the Melnorme to a smaller degree) recalling our history with them, which apparently began before our official “first contact,” which is somewhat disconcerting, but perhaps their “relationship” prior to the War created some kind of obligation on part of the Arilou to come to our aid when trouble arose.

But back to your question, why would they share their secrets? Perhaps they’re just really good guys after all and they’d like to lend us a hand, or perhaps they’re afraid sooner or later the Kohr-Ah will rip through the fabric of space/time and continue to destroy all sentient life… including those in other dimensions. Who knows? Perhaps they miss pestering agents Scully and Mulder and they can’t wait to get that slave-shield lowered so the crop circles and anal-probing can recommence!

The Arilou are obviously important to solving some of the game’s riddles, but I’m hoping everything will unfold nicely for me once I’m able to make it out there. I’m just hoping I won’t have to search too much to find this strange hole in space or sit idle in HyperSpace waiting for the dang thing to appear!… Well, I suppose I’ve already recently had my fair share of sitting like a bump on a log in space! What’s a few more days? :P

_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” - Khan Noonien Singh


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:11 pm 
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ZFP Peacekeeper
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Huh. I never considered that *jumping in front* might be teleportation. I thought it was more "stopping them from doing what they wanted". What with stopping parties and all that.


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:20 pm 
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Slylandro gasbags
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Death 999 wrote:
Huh. I never considered that *jumping in front* might be teleportation. I thought it was more "stopping them from doing what they wanted". What with stopping parties and all that.
The Orz's reference to the Arilou (along with everything else they say) is obscure and confusing. I think that their translated language is only giving us tidbits of what they're really saying, so we're left with filling in the blanks the best we can with only the context of what we already know as a guide.

Therefore, *jumping in front* could be talking about some kind of interference the Arilou or causing, or perhaps even some sort of mischievous acts to frustrate or harass the Orz, or perhaps the Arilou perceive the introduction of the Orz into our universe/dimension as a possible threat, and *jumping in front* is a direct opposition to the Orz's foot (or *fingers*) in the door of our dimension... I'm not really sure without more information.

I guess I personally imagine the Orz crusing along, minding their own business, when suddenly before their eyes pops in a few Arilou Skiffs out of nowhere, essentially *jumping in front* of them, and the Orz find this intrusion annoying.

_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” - Khan Noonien Singh


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:47 pm 
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Yehat Revolutionist
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Honestly? My first interpretation was... rather peculiar. I took it literally, you see. I'd played Super-Melee - knew the Skiff could teleport and that the Nemesis had Marines. I ended up interpreting it as the Skiff pressing the teleport button juuust before that Orz Marine manages to board it, thus quite literally "jumping" in "front" of the Marine. I'm sure it would be quite annoying.
Of course, I'm not quite as naive these days - my perspective is... deeper, than it once was. Less narrow-minded.

_________________
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:28 am 
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Orz *camper*

Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:51 am
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Location: Toronto, Canada
Hey Troglodyte, I know you're avoiding looking up transcripts to avoid accidental spoilers, so I have to ask... Did you type all of that manually? :shock:

Death 999 wrote:
Huh. I never considered that *jumping in front* might be teleportation. I thought it was more "stopping them from doing what they wanted". What with stopping parties and all that.


Or both? Teleporting in to stop the parties? :)

The Troglodyte wrote:
...and they can’t wait to get that slave-shield lowered so the crop circles and anal-probing can recommence!


All I can think of is this scene from classic Simpsons. :D


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:12 am 
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Arilou wiseguy

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:01 pm
Posts: 229
So, indeed, The Troglodyte. You have sufficient hints, now can you make the Pkunk vision happen?
It will not happen if you stay seated on your butt in the path of the Pkunk to send them back when they come forth.

Besides, you will need to find a more permanent solution to the Pkunk migrating bird problem.
Which will also not happen when seated in your fast-forward freezing tank....

Also, as you may have recognised yourself, as the game was often more straightforward with the solution, you may have missed a few dots.
So, go and visit the Arilou to find out if they can and will help you.
Now, you also need the Arilou location.... You have sufficient hints on that, but there are more who can tell you about local sector affairs than just Hayes, the Pkunk, and the Melnorme. You are allied with a young and curious spacefaring civilisation, and they are sending scouts everywhere to find out as much as they can. Possibly they are willing to tell you more when you pass by for a chat?


Anyway, have a safe trip!


BTW:
How far did you crank your "saved game" counter by now? And the "game loaded" counter? (Just curious...) This is intended to give you a scare, AFAIK the game does NOT keep track of this.


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:29 am 
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Slylandro gasbags
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Quasispatial wrote:
Honestly? My first interpretation was... rather peculiar. I took it literally, you see. I'd played Super-Melee - knew the Skiff could teleport and that the Nemesis had Marines. I ended up interpreting it as the Skiff pressing the teleport button juuust before that Orz Marine manages to board it, thus quite literally "jumping" in "front" of the Marine. I'm sure it would be quite annoying.

Makes perfect sense to me!

Tormuse wrote:
Hey Troglodyte, I know you're avoiding looking up transcripts to avoid accidental spoilers, so I have to ask... Did you type all of that manually? :shock:

But of course! Every time I’ve encountered new dialogue, I press the spacebar to view the dialogue and then I write it all down via my “Ship’s Computer,” a secondary computer I use mainly for recording information, log entries, dialogue, etc.. Then, for easy access (and my old-school nostalgic methodology) I print out the various interrogatives and replies from aliens I encounter and I keep them in my folder, and then I can restore my save games to experiment with their different responses and results. But there’s no need to take my word for it… See for yourself:

Image

Am I a Star Control fanatic or what? :D

(I feel so embarrassed though, since I haven't had the chance to print out the rest of the dialogue I've accumulated during my last mission!) :oops:

krulle wrote:
So, indeed, The Troglodyte. You have sufficient hints, now can you make the Pkunk vision happen?
It will not happen if you stay seated on your butt in the path of the Pkunk to send them back when they come forth.

Besides, you will need to find a more permanent solution to the Pkunk migrating bird problem.
Which will also not happen when seated in your fast-forward freezing tank....

I’ve given myself some breathing room to help figure out what to do about the Pkunk “moths” (who wish to fly into the Yehat “bug zappers”) by allowing them to traverse up to the day before they’d reach Gamma Serpentis, and then I timed my interception of the Pkunk but avoided the more slower Yehat blips (or possibly VUX blips, since I was positioned crossing into their territory too) until I could isolate a Pkunk group and made contact just in the nick of time! This way I can return to starbase while the Pkunk have the furthest distance to travel to make it back home, giving me the most time before their next migration interval.

krulle wrote:
So, go and visit the Arilou to find out if they can and will help you.
Now, you also need the Arilou location.... You have sufficient hints on that, but there are more who can tell you about local sector affairs than just Hayes, the Pkunk, and the Melnorme.

Yes, I will indeed be heading out towards that region of space, but first I’ll need to attend to our poor ZFP comrades in arms and see if we can come to their assistance before somebody wipes them off the map!

krulle wrote:
You are allied with a young and curious spacefaring civilisation, and they are sending scouts everywhere to find out as much as they can. Possibly they are willing to tell you more when you pass by for a chat?

When I formed the alliance with the ZFP leaders, I returned several times to see if they had anything new to say (which is how I learned about the secret location of the Syreen vault), but I’m anticipating after I come to their rescue, they may have more to reveal, since I’m envisioning more event flags may get triggered.

krulle wrote:
BTW:
How far did you crank your "saved game" counter by now? And the "game loaded" counter? (Just curious...)

I’m not sure if I’m understanding your question correctly, so I’m guessing you’re asking about the technique in which I save and load games?

Well, I keep close track of my save games, and I use what I like to call a “cascade” game-saving method. In short, this means I can save as often as I like (which I did very much so in the beginning), so I’d save every time I made it to anywhere new, including each time I’d enter a new system, as well as each planet, moon, alien encounter, so on and so forth. This of course meant I ran out of my 50 save slots rapidly, so I’d wrap around and start over with the 2nd game slot and proceed accordingly (obviously the next wrap around would start with the 3rd slot). However, if I ran into a more pivotal moment (e.g. finding the Taalo Shield, witnessing the Spathi SOI’s disappearance, etc.) those would get written over the earliest game slots (and recorded in my “special” game save record document file) so I could jump back to any of those important moments. Using this technique, I could, if I wanted, jump all the way back to when I first met Captain Tanaka, for example.

Also, I noticed you had something written (right after “just curious…”) set to size 1, like a hidden message, which I have enlarged:

krulle wrote:
This is intended to give you a scare, AFAIK the game does NOT keep track of this.

Or, are you asking if I keep track of the number of times I save or load a certain gamestate, as if there's a cap or something? I’m pretty sure that number is unlimited. Sneaky, sneaky krulle! :P

_________________
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” - Khan Noonien Singh


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 Post subject: Re: About to try to beat Star Control 2...no spoilers!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:08 am 
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Arilou wiseguy

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:01 pm
Posts: 229
Heh, Yeah, I wanted to hint at a counter in the save game that counts how many times you've saved and/or loaded already.
While loading, it is easy for a game to increase the counter, while leaving the rest intact.

Years ago I played a "Die Siedler" / real time Civilisations like game, where the game allowed you a maximum of 5 saves, and 10 loads per started map. No sixth saving (game turned to "ironman mode"). If you used more "load game" than that, the game gave you resource gathering penalties. Which increased per further "load game". And since the game made an extra info-file where it stored this additional information, it was able to keep track of of a tree of saves which it all counted for the same started map. Which also meant that save game files had a limited transportability to other PC's (needed to "export" from within the game). Heck, otherwise the game was so far from par with same genre games, that I even forgot its name. Pity. Because I liked and hated this feature.
Because it limited my ability to return to my favourite map... But it prevented me from load/saving until I had a "perfect game".

And yes, there were save game editors, which also reset the counters if desired....


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