the multi ship what if

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glory_device
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the multi ship what if

Post by glory_device » Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:41 pm

Recently, I was trying to imagine how would star-control melee be affected if multiple ships were engaged in combat simultaneously. Weird interaction cases aside, how strong would it be to get two Cruiser shooting missiles while an Avatar screen for them and create space. I can only imagine things like flanking and the different strategic consideration of each ship!

While programming a whole melee with a lot of ship would be probably crazy...I wonder if we could home brew some kind of table top game similar to Fantasy Flight Game x-wing series. It's Thinking Thursday...any idea? thoughts?
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Specifically, they pried me from the doorjamb, and rolled me into the street.'' -Fwiffo

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palmpet
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Re: the multi ship what if

Post by palmpet » Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:16 pm

Interesting idea. Ive thought about this multiple times but never thought to much into it.
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Quasispatial
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Re: the multi ship what if

Post by Quasispatial » Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:39 pm

Same. I tried making some sort of card game once, but that didn't... go so well.

However, if you make a board, say with dimensions 9x9 or 11x11, then place two starbases in opposite corners and have ships be played out like cards (spawning from the players' respective starbases if they can pay the RU cost), that could serve the trick. Each ship could have an attack value (together with a penetration value and range value for how well the projectile fares when colliding with other projectiles and from how far it can attack, respectively), a health value and a speed/evasion value. Aside from that, it could also have "card text", that is their special ability, which could be either active or passive.

For instance, to name examples of how a few card texts could look:

Avatar:
Tractor beam - Whenever this ship attacks another ship, if the target ship is out of range, move it one square closer instead.
Zapsat defence - When a ship attacks the square that this ship is on, or an adjacent square, it has -1 penetration. Any adjacent hostile ships take X damage per turn. (An actual number would have to replace X, which one depending on how the health system is structured so that the relative damage dealt is balanced).

Jugger:

Utwig shielding - Whenever this ship is attacked, it may sacrifice its next attack and ignore this damage. The number of attacks sacrificed does not stack.

Fury:

Rebirth - Whenever this ship is destroyed, roll a dice. If the result is an uneven number, return this ship to full health at the end of turn.
Slow energy recharge - Whenever this ship attacks, it cannot attack during its next turn.

Intruder:

Precise calculations - This ship may be summoned at any unoccupied square on the battlefield.
Limpet cocoons - Whenever this ship attacks another ship, reduce the target ship's mobility by 1.
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.

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The Troglodyte
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Re: the multi ship what if

Post by The Troglodyte » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:02 pm

Cool idea! :P

I really like those examples too Q! You (or anybody for that matter) should throw out some more ideas of how other cards would work when they pop in your head! :)

Yeah, just a thought... you could even do something like rolling a dice at the beginning of your turn to see if you have enough points to "manufacture" your ship from the cards in your hand or even use a special ability, or simply add them to your points pool for later.
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Quasispatial
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Re: the multi ship what if

Post by Quasispatial » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:39 pm

Well yes, I do believe that the RU count should be something that stacks. Maybe it couldn't hurt to have a number of mining bases for income spread around the map. Say, the starbase itself provides five RU per turn, and for each of the (say, six) mining bases you control, you recieve an additional two RU. If we place a planet in the center, that could be worth five RUs too, giving a touch of king of the hill.

The turns could be split into two pieces. The build phase (where you build your ships, obviously), and then the move/attack phase, where you maneuver your ships to do various things. Ships would have their turns arranged based on their mobility value, which would also determine how many squares the ship would be able to move in one turn, and if several ships have the same value, the two players would move one each repeatedly, moving them in the order they choose as long as they are of the conflicting speed value.

Now, for additional card texts, as there appears to be an interest.

Terminator:
Yehat shielding - This ship may become immune to damage until its next turn. It may not do this two turns in a row.

Probe:
WE COME IN PEACE - This ship automatically moves towards and attacks the closest, non-Probe ship. This ship cannot attack starbases unless no other targets are available. At the start of each turn, roll a dice. If the result is an even number, summon a Probe under the control of neither player at any location neither within two squares' distance of a starbase nor adjacent to another ship.
Replication - Whenever this ship destroys another ship, summon another Probe at the destroyed ship's position.
Slow energy recharge - after attacking, this ship cannot attack during its next turn, and will automatically move away from rather than towards its target.

Dreadnought:
Fighter squadrons - During this ship's turn, this ship may deal X damage (you know the drill with X, as I explained it within my previous post) to itself and attack any non-friendly ship regardless of range, instead of attacking normally. This attack has the same damage value as the Dreadnought's own, except with a penetration value of 1. This ship may not do this if it is below X health, and this ability cannot be used to attack starbases.

Skiff:
Emergency teleportation - When this ship is attacked, you may roll a dice. If the result is not a 1 or 2, move this ship to a random square on the battlefield and ignore the attack. If the result is a 1, the attack will only account for half of the Skiff's evasion value. If the result is a 2, destroy this ship. (Teleported into another object there).
Auto-targeting laser - this ship's attack never misses.

Cruiser:
Homing missiles - This ship's attack ignores half of its target's evasion value.
Laser point-defence system - when this ship is attacked, it may sacrifice its next attack and reduce the enemy attack's penetration by 1 as well as dealing X damage to any adjacent non-friendly vessels. It may do this twice in the same turn, the second time without sacrificing its own attack.


--EDIT: Modified the Terminator slightly due to Death999's comment.
Last edited by Quasispatial on Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Death 999
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Re: the multi ship what if

Post by Death 999 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:47 pm

The Yehat's ability to attack and shield at the same time is pretty important, I'd say.

Anyway, for realtime on this, look into Timewarp. I don't know where that ended up, but it definitely had multi-ship melee.

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Re: the multi ship what if

Post by Quasispatial » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:54 am

Since I feel like it, might as well write up a few more card texts.

Marauder:
Remnant discs - When this ship's attack misses, place a Kohr-Ah Disc on any square adjacent to the target. It may also attack empty space for the same effect.
F.R.I.E.D. system - When this ship is attacked, it may sacrifice its next attack and deal X damage to all ships on adjacent squares, as well as ignoring the attack. It may also do this instead of attacking.

Kohr-Ah Disc:
Delayed hit - Any ship can occupy the same square as this ship. When another ship occupies the same square as this ship, deal X damage to it and destroy this ship.

Torch:
Afterburner - When this ship moves, it may double its speed and leave a fiery trail on any square it passes over on its way to its destination. During the rest of the turn, if another ship moves onto or across a square with the fiery trail, deal X damage to it. The Torch may not do this two turns in a row.

Broodhome:
DOGI - Instead of attacking, this ship may cause another ship to sacrifice its next attack.
Splintering shards - When this ship attacks, if the attack misses, deal X damage to all ships adjacent to a random unoccupied square which is adjacent to the target.

Penetrator:
Syreen song - When this ship attacks, restore health to it equal to the damage dealt.
Low standard crew - When this ship is summoned, deal X damage to it.
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.

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Quasispatial
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Re: the multi ship what if

Post by Quasispatial » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:34 pm

Aaaaand more of them...

Scout:
Glory device - At any point, you may destroy this vessel and deal X damage to all adjacent ships.

Podship:
Restoration - Instead of attacking, this ship may restore X health to itself.
Homing plasmoids - When this ship attacks, it deals X less damage for each square between it and its target. This ship's attack never misses if the target ship's speed is below X.

Stinger:
Tongue lash - When this ship attacks an adjacent ship, it deals double damage.

Mauler:
Furnace duty - When this ship attacks, if it attacked during its previous turn deal X damage to it.
"Sentient life. We are the Ur-Quan. Independence is intolerable. Blah, blah, blah." - the Spathi High Council, Star Control II.

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Re: the multi ship what if

Post by glory_device » Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:34 pm

whoaaa...I'd be willing to try to design something up with you Quasi...However might I suggest that we try to just do like 4 ships for the moment and nail down a bit of mechanics of how the game works? how do we move? Damage template or flat hp? system damage? range? Hex grid or a square grid?

Sooooo okay, I'd begin with the earthling cruiser and the shofixti for the alliance...since they are pretty straight forward and they represent a broad spectrum of speed, size and range. On Hierachy side, I'd try to work on the Spathi and Mycon.

I'd also recommend some form of point system to balance fleet out in the same way that melee does (and warhammer, and x-wing and...yada yada)


So the first design mission is a death match where you need to knock out the ennemy starbase...Before venturing into ship construction and ressource we could do a static type of thing too. But, the sooner we got a ''workable'' game the better it will be to actually incorporate extra mechanics into that game.

I'm probably rambling a lot...But, I'm kinda excited about that one!
''I swiftly matured into a fine example of my species and with my parents' assistance, achieved independence.
Specifically, they pried me from the doorjamb, and rolled me into the street.'' -Fwiffo

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The Troglodyte
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Re: the multi ship what if

Post by The Troglodyte » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:04 pm

I should probably excuse myself from this discussion, just in case ya’ll would like to incorporate ideas that may be spoilerous to myself and save anybody the trouble of having to “tiptoe” around the issue on my account… so I’ll leave you guys with some of my thoughts:

@glorydevice
I really think you and Quasi (and others) can really come up with a great game, and I like the approach of focusing on a few ships at a time and the fundamental gameplay. :)

@Quasispatial
I love those preliminary examples! Lots of good ideas to work with there! :P

@Death 999
You're probably right, there could be some gentle tweaking to how the Yehat performs. Any suggestions?

@anybody
You could even use some maps similar to the Star Control 1 campaign mission’s layout, and use opposite field Starbases, the ability to build mines and colonies to generate revenue and replace crew losses respectively (while the ship that’s used for this is rendered immobile until the task is complete), or even random events like stumbling upon a Precursor artifact or something completely different like taking damage from a sudden ion storm while traversing across squares.
“He tasks me. He tasks me, and I shall have him! I’ll chase him ’round the moons of Nibia and ’round the Antares maelstrom and ’round Perdition’s flames before I give him up!” ― Khan Noonien Singh

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