Star Control 1+2 plot holes

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ngnikolaos
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Star Control 1+2 plot holes

Post by ngnikolaos » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:23 pm

Some plot holes I *think* I found in Star Control, now that I did some nostalgic thinking ...

1) Thraddash - The Thraddash were told to "guard the flank" by the Ur-Quan because they weren't strong enough to hold their own in the Great War. So why didn't the Ur-Quan uplift their technology, like they did with the Ilwrath, a far more evil and unstable race than the Thraddash?

2) Earth's Radio - In SC2's manual, we read that the Ur-Quan learned of the planet Earth through our first radio broadcasts, and made plans to come to the Milky Way galaxy and enslave us. Isn't it a little weird that Ur-Quan didn't notice a whole bunch of other, FAR more advanced races in that region of space, like the Chenjensu, Mmrn-mmrn, Yehat, etc. and just payed attention to Earth? (unless they said "one more to conquer in that region")

3) Syreen Crew - In both SC manuals, we read that the Syreens use psychic manipulation to steal crew from hostile races and turn them into obedient crewmembers, thanks to their ships' psionic amplifiers. Isn't that mental domination, a.k.a. a form of slavery? How come the Alliance of *free* stars ever accepted this tactic of the Syreens? How better from the Ur-Quan are the Chenjensu if they let their allies have slaves?

4) Sofixti Breeding - In SC2, when Tanaka mates with the maidens, after a VERY short while, the first sofixti warrior-pilots emerge and join the action. Aside from the fact that it took about a year to do so (maybe less, I don't really recall), that is, a year to impregnate a female sofixti, give birth to siblings, have them grow into full fledged adults and receive fighter-pilot training, they also come into so many freaking numbers that the base is thriving with the furry fighters, reducing your cost to hire ship personnel. And all that, in less than a year.

5) The Ending - Another plot hole (I think) When you destroy the Sa-Matra, all of your allies defeat the Ur-Quan and their battle thralls, along with the Kohr-Ah. It seems a bit difficult to believe that an alliance with half of its members slave-shielded and the other half in less-than-stellar firepower (the Utwig are the only ones who I consider powerhouses in aircraft power, and they were crippled by their Kohr-Ah skirmishes) managed to overthrow two Supreme Battle Fleets (Kzer-za / Kohr-Ah) along with their lackeys. (I realize that most Hierarchy races crippled each other -- Thraddash/Ilwrath, Kzer-za/Kohr-Ah, but still ...)

What do you guys think?
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Smoke353
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Re: Star Control 1+2 plot holes

Post by Smoke353 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:49 pm

ngnikolaos wrote:1) Thraddash - The Thraddash were told to "guard the flank" by the Ur-Quan because they weren't strong enough to hold their own in the Great War. So why didn't the Ur-Quan uplift their technology, like they did with the Ilwrath, a far more evil and unstable race than the Thraddash?
I think the Thraddash were told to guard the flank as a way to occupy them, not have them actually be useful. They never expected anyone from behind them to come because they were all under slave shields.
Also, there was no one nearby to fight unlike with the Ilwrath.
ngnikolaos wrote:2) Earth's Radio - In SC2's manual, we read that the Ur-Quan learned of the planet Earth through our first radio broadcasts, and made plans to come to the Milky Way galaxy and enslave us. Isn't it a little weird that Ur-Quan didn't notice a whole bunch of other, FAR more advanced races in that region of space, like the Chenjensu, Mmrn-mmrn, Yehat, etc. and just payed attention to Earth? (unless they said "one more to conquer in that region")
Your last thought there would be the best explanation.
ngnikolaos wrote:3) Syreen Crew - In both SC manuals, we read that the Syreens use psychic manipulation to steal crew from hostile races and turn them into obedient crewmembers, thanks to their ships' psionic amplifiers. Isn't that mental domination, a.k.a. a form of slavery? How come the Alliance of *free* stars ever accepted this tactic of the Syreens? How better from the Ur-Quan are the Chenjensu if they let their allies have slaves?
2 problems here. As far as we know, Syreen control makes them willing slaves. Which makes the whole thing controversial as opposed to just bad. But I think more importantly, the other races in the alliance never seemed to care much for the Syreen. They did not want to join the alliance, and the Yehat, Shofixti, and Arilou all abandoned them after Earth and Procyon were taken.
ngnikolaos wrote:4) Sofixti Breeding - In SC2, when Tanaka mates with the maidens, after a VERY short while, the first sofixti warrior-pilots emerge and join the action. Aside from the fact that it took about a year to do so (maybe less, I don't really recall), that is, a year to impregnate a female sofixti, give birth to siblings, have them grow into full fledged adults and receive fighter-pilot training, they also come into so many freaking numbers that the base is thriving with the furry fighters, reducing your cost to hire ship personnel. And all that, in less than a year. =
The only potential issue here is the training. And that's assuming that Shofixti scouts are complicated to fly, which seems unlikely. It was known that Shofixti breed very quickly, and as they appear to be small, and likely have a short life span (even without the glory devices), it's entirely acceptable to have a very short gestation and development period.
Plus Katana/Tanaka was in space alone for a long time, he probably wanted lots of sex ;)
ngnikolaos wrote:5) The Ending - Another plot hole (I think) When you destroy the Sa-Matra, all of your allies defeat the Ur-Quan and their battle thralls, along with the Kohr-Ah. It seems a bit difficult to believe that an alliance with half of its members slave-shielded and the other half in less-than-stellar firepower (the Utwig are the only ones who I consider powerhouses in aircraft power, and they were crippled by their Kohr-Ah skirmishes) managed to overthrow two Supreme Battle Fleets (Kzer-za / Kohr-Ah) along with their lackeys. (I realize that most Hierarchy races crippled each other -- Thraddash/Ilwrath, Kzer-za/Kohr-Ah, but still ...)
I don't remember if it said how long it took to beat the Ur-Quan, however, between the added strength of the Utwig, Supox, ZFP, Orz, Pkunk, and possibly a few Druuge, the attacks of the Thraddash on the Kohr-Ah, the extinction of the Androsynth, the infighting of battle-thralls, the release of the Umgah from Dynarri control, and the Chmmr being designed specifically to fight the Ur-Quan, I think it's plausible. It's also possible that when the tide turned in the alliance's favor, that the Mycon would switch sides. Also, on the Thraddash, they have gone through two new Cultures since the Ur-Quan takeover. They might not like the Captain after stealing the aqua helix, but theres no telling if they like the Ur-Quan any more.
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Re: Star Control 1+2 plot holes

Post by Fossaman » Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:04 pm

1) The Thraddash were still rather unruly; massive internal conflicts and wars were par for the course. The dialogue mentions that they've bombed themselves back to the stone age more than once.

Would you give somebody like that bigger guns? I sure as heck wouldn't, and I'm not even a galaxy-conquering overlord species.

2) Anthropic historical revision, obviously.

3) It's iffy, of course. They were already enslaved by the Ur-quan, though. It's entirely possible that they were happy about being enslaved by the Syreen, depending on what form the psychic manipulation took.

4) It's not too much of a stretch, if you assume a really short span of time from birth to maturity. There are earth animals that develop that fast, after all. Not very intelligent ones, but a lot can be hand-waved away by saying "They're aliens."
There would probably need to be three or four generations of young shofixti in that year's time to get the right kind of population growth for the numbers available. It all depends on the number of shofixti maidens available in the first place, the average litter size, and the normal male-female birth ratio. As for training...I bet it's doable. Especially if you assume really strict discipline and absolute focus.

5) The Chmmr provide you with unlimited resources at the end of the game. If they turn those towards building fleets, they can take on the Ur-quan, even if they have to lose a ship for every one they destroy. That's about what you'd get in an average melee match.
But what I would do if I were running that kind of war? I'd gather a small number of large fleets together, and use them to pick off smaller enemy groups. Two Chmmr Avatars could take out a Kohr-Ah and take less damage total than a solo Avatar could. The Ur-Quan races are going to be scattered and in disarray after the loss of the Sa-Matra. It would be an ideal situation to send out larger hunter groups. By the time they catch on and start bunching up, their numbers will be reduced significantly. Meanwhile, yours have been increased by further ship production and maybe by digging out more races from behind their slave shields.

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Re: Star Control 1+2 plot holes

Post by Angelfish » Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:24 pm

ngnikolaos wrote:Some plot holes I *think* I found in Star Control, now that I did some nostalgic thinking ...

1) Thraddash - The Thraddash were told to "guard the flank" by the Ur-Quan because they weren't strong enough to hold their own in the Great War. So why didn't the Ur-Quan uplift their technology, like they did with the Ilwrath, a far more evil and unstable race than the Thraddash?
I don't really know, but I don't see the ilwrath as more unstable than the thraddash. If you gave the thraddash more advanced tech, then they'd prolly nuke themselves back into the stoneage all that much faster -- not something you need when you need them as allies.
2) Earth's Radio - In SC2's manual, we read that the Ur-Quan learned of the planet Earth through our first radio broadcasts, and made plans to come to the Milky Way galaxy and enslave us. Isn't it a little weird that Ur-Quan didn't notice a whole bunch of other, FAR more advanced races in that region of space, like the Chenjensu, Mmrn-mmrn, Yehat, etc. and just payed attention to Earth? (unless they said "one more to conquer in that region")
I have no idea ;).

3) Syreen Crew - In both SC manuals, we read that the Syreens use psychic manipulation to steal crew from hostile races and turn them into obedient crewmembers, thanks to their ships' psionic amplifiers. Isn't that mental domination, a.k.a. a form of slavery? How come the Alliance of *free* stars ever accepted this tactic of the Syreens? How better from the Ur-Quan are the Chenjensu if they let their allies have slaves?[/quote]

In wars there s no good or evil. Both sides do just what they need to to ensure survival. If surviving means that you have to mentally enslave others, that's an acceptable method.
4) Sofixti Breeding - In SC2, when Tanaka mates with the maidens, after a VERY short while, the first sofixti warrior-pilots emerge and join the action. Aside from the fact that it took about a year to do so (maybe less, I don't really recall), that is, a year to impregnate a female sofixti, give birth to siblings, have them grow into full fledged adults and receive fighter-pilot training, they also come into so many freaking numbers that the base is thriving with the furry fighters, reducing your cost to hire ship personnel. And all that, in less than a year.
Mice breed rapidly too. They attain sexual maturity in 1,5 month to 3 months :D. What if you had intelligent spacefaring mice?
5) The Ending - Another plot hole (I think) When you destroy the Sa-Matra, all of your allies defeat the Ur-Quan and their battle thralls, along with the Kohr-Ah. It seems a bit difficult to believe that an alliance with half of its members slave-shielded and the other half in less-than-stellar firepower (the Utwig are the only ones who I consider powerhouses in aircraft power, and they were crippled by their Kohr-Ah skirmishes) managed to overthrow two Supreme Battle Fleets (Kzer-za / Kohr-Ah) along with their lackeys. (I realize that most Hierarchy races crippled each other -- Thraddash/Ilwrath, Kzer-za/Kohr-Ah, but still ...)
You're forgetting the Chmmr Avatar.. that ship can tear through a dreadnought in seconds!

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Re: Star Control 1+2 plot holes

Post by Smoke353 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:25 pm

There is also the possibility that the large number of ships guarding the Sa-Matra that the Dnyarri misdirected were sent off to fight other Ur-Quan ships.
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Re: Star Control 1+2 plot holes

Post by Draxas » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:06 pm

ngnikolaos wrote:1) Thraddash - The Thraddash were told to "guard the flank" by the Ur-Quan because they weren't strong enough to hold their own in the Great War. So why didn't the Ur-Quan uplift their technology, like they did with the Ilwrath, a far more evil and unstable race than the Thraddash?
The big difference between the Ilwrath and Thraddash is that the Ilwrath are willing to follow orders. The first thing the Thraddash did after being enslaved was start a civil war. When the Ur-Quan told them to stop, the second thing that they did was continue their civil war using biological weapons "on the sly." I'm pretty sure the Ur-Quan wrote them off as too unpredictable to make useful soldiers at that point, so why improve their technology if they had no plans to use them to actually fight?
2) Earth's Radio - In SC2's manual, we read that the Ur-Quan learned of the planet Earth through our first radio broadcasts, and made plans to come to the Milky Way galaxy and enslave us. Isn't it a little weird that Ur-Quan didn't notice a whole bunch of other, FAR more advanced races in that region of space, like the Chenjensu, Mmrn-mmrn, Yehat, etc. and just payed attention to Earth? (unless they said "one more to conquer in that region")
The Ur-Quan were headed this way anyway, radio signals or not, since it was part of their galactic enslavement tour. However, intercepting our radio signals simply pointed us out to them specifically, so they could ensure that they wouldn't overlook us.
3) Syreen Crew - In both SC manuals, we read that the Syreens use psychic manipulation to steal crew from hostile races and turn them into obedient crewmembers, thanks to their ships' psionic amplifiers. Isn't that mental domination, a.k.a. a form of slavery? How come the Alliance of *free* stars ever accepted this tactic of the Syreens? How better from the Ur-Quan are the Chenjensu if they let their allies have slaves?
As someone else stated, the Syreen were not particularly thrilled to actually join the Alliance, and did so out of necessity to survive since they were under constant attack by the VUX. Based on the briefing in the SC1 manual, the Syreen were treated with suspicion thanks to some early incidents. But in all honesty, beggars can't be choosers. The Alliance wouldn't turn the Syreen away, because they need whatever help they can get.
4) Sofixti Breeding - In SC2, when Tanaka mates with the maidens, after a VERY short while, the first sofixti warrior-pilots emerge and join the action. Aside from the fact that it took about a year to do so (maybe less, I don't really recall), that is, a year to impregnate a female sofixti, give birth to siblings, have them grow into full fledged adults and receive fighter-pilot training, they also come into so many freaking numbers that the base is thriving with the furry fighters, reducing your cost to hire ship personnel. And all that, in less than a year.
Clearly, the Shofixti have extremely fast gestation, large litters, and short times to reach maturity. So between Tanaka / Katana and the 16 maidens, presumably you have thousands of mature Shofixti by the end of a year.
5) The Ending - Another plot hole (I think) When you destroy the Sa-Matra, all of your allies defeat the Ur-Quan and their battle thralls, along with the Kohr-Ah. It seems a bit difficult to believe that an alliance with half of its members slave-shielded and the other half in less-than-stellar firepower (the Utwig are the only ones who I consider powerhouses in aircraft power, and they were crippled by their Kohr-Ah skirmishes) managed to overthrow two Supreme Battle Fleets (Kzer-za / Kohr-Ah) along with their lackeys. (I realize that most Hierarchy races crippled each other -- Thraddash/Ilwrath, Kzer-za/Kohr-Ah, but still ...)
The Chmmr are undoubtedly pivotal in orchestrating the Ur-Quan defeat. With an immense amount of resources and vast numbers of ships, plus the Yehat and Pkunk resolving the civil war, the Utwig / Supox alliance, the Orz war machine, etc.etc.etc., the Ur-Quan are likely taken by surprise after reeling from the destruction of the Sa-Matra and overwhelmed by superior numbers.

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Re: Star Control 1+2 plot holes

Post by sparkawk » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:09 am

ngnikolaos wrote:Some plot holes I *think* I found in Star Control, now that I did some nostalgic thinking ...

2) Earth's Radio - In SC2's manual, we read that the Ur-Quan learned of the planet Earth through our first radio broadcasts, and made plans to come to the Milky Way galaxy and enslave us. Isn't it a little weird that Ur-Quan didn't notice a whole bunch of other, FAR more advanced races in that region of space, like the Chenjensu, Mmrn-mmrn, Yehat, etc. and just payed attention to Earth? (unless they said "one more to conquer in that region")
Awesome, I can totally answer this one per reality. There have been recent news about human broadcasts into space. Specifically, when we were all using analog television, AM/FM radio, etc., Earth made a lot of signal noise into space. With the advent of the digital age, scientists are noting that less and less signals are transmitted into space. Rather than "broadcasts" of television stations, eveything is moving through wires or I suppose low-powered signals. Whatever the case, it is being noted that the Earth is becoming more silent. Scientists are beginning to believe that because high technology makes less general broadcast noise, it would be harder for humans to detect technologically-advanced races. This real-world explanation fits perfectly into SC lore. And indeed, it goes to show that watching UHF is bad for society.
5) The Ending - Another plot hole (I think) When you destroy the Sa-Matra, all of your allies defeat the Ur-Quan and their battle thralls, along with the Kohr-Ah. It seems a bit difficult to believe that an alliance with half of its members slave-shielded and the other half in less-than-stellar firepower (the Utwig are the only ones who I consider powerhouses in aircraft power, and they were crippled by their Kohr-Ah skirmishes) managed to overthrow two Supreme Battle Fleets (Kzer-za / Kohr-Ah) along with their lackeys. (I realize that most Hierarchy races crippled each other -- Thraddash/Ilwrath, Kzer-za/Kohr-Ah, but still ...)
I might be mis-remembering, but I thought the Urquan fleets were thrown into havoc because of the loss of the Sa-Matra. It wouldn't be the first time in history that the destruction of an iconic religious relic threw a culture into chaos. But the best example is simply: Conan the Barbarian. Conan kills the leader, the entire snake clan falls without a central icon to unify it. Easy as pie.

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Re: Star Control 1+2 plot holes

Post by Eth » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:47 am

The Ur-Quan lost a lot of ships to the Shofixti Blaze of Glory, too.

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Re: Star Control 1+2 plot holes

Post by Nuclear » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:30 am

sparkawk wrote:I might be mis-remembering, but I thought the Urquan fleets were thrown into havoc because of the loss of the Sa-Matra. It wouldn't be the first time in history that the destruction of an iconic religious relic threw a culture into chaos. But the best example is simply: Conan the Barbarian. Conan kills the leader, the entire snake clan falls without a central icon to unify it. Easy as pie.
Yeah, I like this explanation the best. The Sa-Matra gave the Ur-Quans a reason to fight each other. But with the Sa-Matra destroyed, it was pointless to keep battling, seeing how there was no "prize" I guess. Simply put, you destroy the brain, the body dies. I might be wrong though, since the Ur-Quan Hiarchy had no trouble before they found the Sa-Matra.
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Re: Star Control 1+2 plot holes

Post by ngnikolaos » Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:29 am

The Biggest Plot-Hole of all:

Each time you speak with an alien pilot (especially the hostile ones) and combat ensues, when you blow them up then speak with another pilot of the same race, he acts as if he was the same individual you spoke with before, even if you blew him up a few minutes ago. This is very obvious in cases like the Thraddash pilot ("No more history! Back to the subject of the probes!"), or the VUX (even though he refers to himself as "we" when he accepts the apology, speaking for his entire race).

I know that this is done for gameplay purposes, but it stalls the suspencion of disbelief.
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