Net Melee Balance Mod ported to UQM 0.7

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Gekko
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod ported to UQM 0.7

Post by Gekko » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:11 am

Shiver's Improved Netmelee Mod 2.06 has been released.

Downloads at Ultronomicon: Click. You can also follow the modding at Github.

- The mod has been merged permanently with the retreat mod. The new merged mod has been christened as Shiver's Improved Netmelee Mod since the current version adds more than simply balancing.
- The retreat mod is disabled by default. It can be enabled in the game options "advanced" tab by toggling "S-Melee retreat" to "once".
- Bug fix (balance mod): Androsynth no longer gets limpeted in comet form
- Bug fix (retreat): Gravity no longer affects retreating ships
- Bug fix (retreat): Several issues with Pkunk fixed
- Bug fix (retreat): The game now properly finishes when one side loses all his ships
- New feature (retreat): Retreated ships have a coloured reticle around them in the ship selection menu that signifies their crew level.
- New feature (retreat): A timer showing how much time a ship has left before being allowed to retreat has been added

Future work:
- AI mod: The Netmelee Improvement Committee (Oldlaptop, Xaionaro and me) is currently working on improving AI. Right now Xaionaro's improvement for AI ship countering is already seeming promising.
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Dyandod
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod ported to UQM 0.7

Post by Dyandod » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:56 am

I just downloaded the bal mod and retreat mod earlier today. Guess I should've waited a couple hours :)
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod ported to UQM 0.7

Post by Dyandod » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:49 pm

I noticed a bug that happens when you retreat the Mmrnmhrm in Y-form. When it comes back, the X-form has the same speed, acceleration, and turning rate as the Y-form.

Also, maybe this is just me because I really suck but the Ur-Quan seems immensely overpowered...
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod ported to UQM 0.7

Post by oldlaptop » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:08 pm

Dyandod wrote: I noticed a bug that happens when you retreat the Mmrnmhrm in Y-form. When it comes back, the X-form has the same speed, acceleration, and turning rate as the Y-form.
Thank you! If you find any further bugs please let us know (the best place to report bugs is the Github issue tracker here - I don't think the whole development team reads the forums).
Dyandod wrote: Also, maybe this is just me because I really suck but the Ur-Quan seems immensely overpowered...

Ur-Quan has not been altered for quite some time. It is significantly more powerful in the mod, because as it turns out it is significantly underpowered in vanilla (ideally we want it on a level with Chmmr and Kohr-Ah).
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod ported to UQM 0.7

Post by Dyandod » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:56 pm

I always thought Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah were about the same strength, and that Chmmr was a few steps above, but you'd probably know better than me.

Anyway, could I offer my minimally intelligent opinion on the balance anyway? I know you've been working on it for a while and you've probably got it pretty much down by now, but... yeah :)
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod ported to UQM 0.7

Post by oldlaptop » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:56 am

oldlaptop wrote:
Dyandod wrote: I noticed a bug that happens when you retreat the Mmrnmhrm in Y-form. When it comes back, the X-form has the same speed, acceleration, and turning rate as the Y-form.
Thank you! If you find any further bugs please let us know (the best place to report bugs is the Github issue tracker here - I don't think the whole development team reads the forums).
I cannot reproduce this. Are you sure you're using the latest version?
Dyandod wrote:I always thought Ur-Quan and Kohr-Ah were about the same strength, and that Chmmr was a few steps above, but you'd probably know better than me.
In vanilla, Kohr-Ah is slightly stronger than Chmmr, Ur-Quan is much weaker than either of them (worth 18 points or so, not 30). They are meant to be more or less equal in balance mod - Chmmr is still weaker to more 'ordinary' ships, but is intended to hold an edge in direct combat with the other two capital ships.
Dyandod wrote: Anyway, could I offer my minimally intelligent opinion on the balance anyway?
Why not? :)
Dyandod wrote:I know you've been working on it for a while and you've probably got it pretty much down by now, but... yeah :)
Shiver finalized most of the balance work long ago, the game balance has barely been touched by the current team (although enabling retreat in any form is a massive game-changer).
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Dyandod
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod ported to UQM 0.7

Post by Dyandod » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:54 am

I'm using v0.7.0 UQM + v2.06 "Shiver's Improved NetMelee Mod"

The Arilou's teleport seems a lot more useless than in vanilla- I think I know what you were trying to do but I think the teleport location should be at least somewhat random/unpredictable.

Also, I've noticed that four of the ships had their "strength" changed by more than 3 points (Androsynth, Chenjesu, Mycon, and Yehat). I think it would be nice if we could get their strengths closer to what they were originally meant to be (just my opinion)

By the way, I'm on uqm-arena right now... :)
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod ported to UQM 0.7

Post by Draxas » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:28 pm

Dyandod wrote:Also, I've noticed that four of the ships had their "strength" changed by more than 3 points (Androsynth, Chenjesu, Mycon, and Yehat). I think it would be nice if we could get their strengths closer to what they were originally meant to be (just my opinion)
You'll notice all 4 of those ships were from SC1. Fred and Paul didn't actually revise their point values from the first game, but those values accounted for abilities on the tactical map as well as a more finely tuned score balance (based on fewer ships and Alliance vs. Hierarchy). Most folks agree that these values in particular were in dire need of serious adjustment (as well as the Ur-Quan, but that got up-powered instead).

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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod ported to UQM 0.7

Post by Gekko » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:59 pm

Dyandod wrote:I'm using v0.7.0 UQM + v2.06 "Shiver's Improved NetMelee Mod"
The Arilou's teleport seems a lot more useless than in vanilla- I think I know what you were trying to do but I think the teleport location should be at least somewhat random/unpredictable.
Arilou went through a few versions. Namely, the issue was that no-one liked the random teleporting in vanilla, so the question was mostly about how to give Arilou a new weapon. The secondary retreat teleport is what it needs to be - retreat away from the enemy, never appear near the foe. This eliminates the entire chain teleporting issue. Arilou with only this feature seems rather lacking since it is so weak that it can take out only the slowest and most inaccurate of ships. The offensive teleport gives the Arilou the upper hand in some fights where it could not win by simply flying towards the enemy. In the current version Arilou requires quite a bit of skill since I haven't seen many people fully utilize the frontal teleport properly. The number of matches where it is applicable isn't as large as I initially thought.

There actually is a random element in the teleportation. At a point the offensive teleport was so powerful that you could always land precisely where you wanted and take out way too many ships. Then a random element was given for it, then Arilou was made to suffer 1 crew loss each time it landed on top of something, then the teleporter was given a cool down delay, then the ship was made immobile for a while... There were a lot of variations. At a point the ship had been nerfed so much that flying that damn thing was impossible. I commented on it feeling like flying an asteroid. In the current form Arilou has a very brief time delay (2 frames I think) after it drops out of telespace, and the frontal teleport has a random factor in all directions. It is possible to jump to the rear side of a pillboxing Ilwrath, but you have to be closer to the target than you'd expect. Especially if the enemy is moving away it can be somewhat hard to get the teleportation right.
Also, I've noticed that four of the ships had their "strength" changed by more than 3 points (Androsynth, Chenjesu, Mycon, and Yehat). I think it would be nice if we could get their strengths closer to what they were originally meant to be (just my opinion)
There were two reasons. As was already said, the prices were off initially (there is also a mod which simply modifies most of the prices) and Shiver wanted to have all ships with prices divisable by two. The latter change makes it easier to get your fleet value exactly to 200 points.
By the way, I'm on uqm-arena right now... :)
Unfortunately Oldlaptop had gone off to sleepy islands by that time and I had just left for university. You can probably get a game going if you arrive some 3 or 4 hours earlier.

Any discussion is welcome, as always. Thanks for the bug report too.
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Re: Net Melee Balance Mod ported to UQM 0.7

Post by Dyandod » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:33 pm

Draxas wrote:Most folks agree that these values in particular were in dire need of serious adjustment (as well as the Ur-Quan, but that got up-powered instead).
That's what I'm saying- I think the actual ships should've been changed a bit more, rather than (just) their point values.
Gekko wrote:Arilou
Yeah, the Arilou was very overpowered in vanilla. I think youu went just a little too far though in terms of toning down the advantage.
Gekko wrote:There were two reasons. As was already said, the prices were off initially (there is also a mod which simply modifies most of the prices) and Shiver wanted to have all ships with prices divisable by two. The latter change makes it easier to get your fleet value exactly to 200 points.
Huh- I don't really see the point in that latter change, but OK.


Also, when I'm selecting my ships for battle, there doesn't seem to be any way to delete a ship? You can replace it with a different ship, but not remove it.
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