The YouTube Thread

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Draxas
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Re: The YouTube Thread

Post by Draxas » Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:28 pm

You're discounting the Japanese military's mindset at the time. They would sooner go down in a suicidal charge in an attempt to do as much damage as possible. Their air tactics with kamikaze pilots is proof of that. Surrender would never have happened without a massive show of unexpected force.

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RTyp06
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Re: The YouTube Thread

Post by RTyp06 » Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:06 am

I simply disagree. We conquered Germany without the atom bomb. The defenders of Germany were dug in just like Japan would have been and their resolve to fight to the last man just as fanatical. Germany's infrastructure and ability to wage war was so diminished that the resistance was minimal after the allied invasion of western France and largely a rout of Germany's forces back to Berlin. Once we entered Berlin it was just a mop up operation at that point.

So, hypothetically speaking, had we had atomic bombs available at the time, would it have been better to drop atom bombs on Germany rather than a full scale invasion? I don't think so. It may have saved a lot of allied soldiers lives but the indiscriminate killing of civilians would have far exceeded the historical death count in my view.

As for Japan, I think we could have achieved the same result with conventional means. Also, we could have demonstrated the destructive power of our new bombs by striking less populated targets. The huge loss of civilians wasn't necessary in my view.

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Death 999
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Re: The YouTube Thread

Post by Death 999 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:02 pm

A: Was that in response to me, or just a followup on your original post? I just pointed out that Hiroshima and Nagasaki caused mass casualties, but the others didn't.

B: Japan was playing for delay, hoping to use the threat of surrendering to the USSR instead of the USA to get better leverage and keep more rights under a surrender to the USA (or potentially to the USSR). They knew the cold war was coming, and saw an opportunity.

The atomic attacks denied them this opportunity. It's not at all clear how the cold war would have gone with Japan either under Soviet control or far more autonomous from the US than it was.

And to prevent the Soviets from getting this advantage was why Truman ordered the bomb dropped. Not so much to prevent the invasion of Japan, as to claim more ground in the burgeoning Cold War. If it had been Britain advancing from the northwest instead of the Soviets, we wouldn't have been in such a hurry. It might well not have been done. And of course, it acted as an implicit threat to the Soviets themselves.

That sounds cold, but having that threat delivered in force, and holding Japan, may have prevented the cold war from becoming hot in the first place and thereby prevented world war 3. And it's not exactly a butterfly effect - that's what they were trying to do, so yes, they should get credit for that outcome (as well as, of course, blame for the deaths. No doubt about it).
Last edited by Death 999 on Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Angelfish
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Re: The YouTube Thread

Post by Angelfish » Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:56 pm

Draxas wrote:You're discounting the Japanese military's mindset at the time. They would sooner go down in a suicidal charge in an attempt to do as much damage as possible. Their air tactics with kamikaze pilots is proof of that. Surrender would never have happened without a massive show of unexpected force.
Yeah and Hitler could've never brought the jews to their knees without resorting to using gas chambers.
What's your point? Both countries used genocide to accomplish their own agenda. No need in trying to justify that because genocide is not ever going to be justified.

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RTyp06
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Re: The YouTube Thread

Post by RTyp06 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:11 pm

Americans used weapons of mass destruction, yes, but genocide?

Genocide n. noun

The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.


... I don't think I'd go that far. Nazi Germany and the Jews perhaps, but not America's use of atomic weapons.

D999 - We are pretty much in agreement. Politics did play a large role in the use of the atomic bombs.

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Re: The YouTube Thread

Post by Dragon » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:13 am

Draxas wrote:You're discounting the Japanese military's mindset at the time. They would sooner go down in a suicidal charge in an attempt to do as much damage as possible. Their air tactics with kamikaze pilots is proof of that. Surrender would never have happened without a massive show of unexpected force.
Not entirely related to the discussion; but the mindset of so called "Big 6", the Japanese Supreme Council for the Direction of the War was no surrender no matter the cost. Given the Japanese's military infrastructure was pretty much non-existent at the time it's a suicidal mindset to have.

I can't find an article but the relationship between the Big 6, Emperor Hirohito, the Japanese people and the internal politics around Japan's surrender makes for an interesting read. Some googling or clicking off from the second Chinese/Japanese war should find it.

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Angelfish
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Re: The YouTube Thread

Post by Angelfish » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:03 pm

RTyp06 wrote:Americans used weapons of mass destruction, yes, but genocide?

Genocide n. noun

The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.


... I don't think I'd go that far. Nazi Germany and the Jews perhaps, but not America's use of atomic weapons.

D999 - We are pretty much in agreement. Politics did play a large role in the use of the atomic bombs.
You're using semantics to make the death of thousands of innocent people seem less horrible. It isn't.

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Death 999
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Re: The YouTube Thread

Post by Death 999 » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:54 pm

No, he's using words to more accurately describe what happened. Genocide it wasn't. Bad things can be bad without being genocide.

Like, it's not improper to say that a murder wasn't also a rape, when it wasn't. Doesn't make it whitewashing, either.

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Angelfish
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Re: The YouTube Thread

Post by Angelfish » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:31 pm

So yeah, it was mass murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people (300.000 is close approximation calculated today). Harry Truman deserved to be executed for these war crimes.

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Re: The YouTube Thread

Post by glory_device » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:41 pm

Angelfish wrote:So yeah, it was mass murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people (300.000 is close approximation calculated today). Harry Truman deserved to be executed for these war crimes.
In stories there is a good guy and there is a bad guy. However, in reality, there is a winner (the good guy) and there is a loser (the bad guy)...along the way, there are many collateral victims. For strategic planner, terms like ''acceptable losses and expected casualty'' are common place...For you and me, it doesn't make sense at all to see human lives like stats and numbers.

History decides who is the hero and who is the enemy...
''I swiftly matured into a fine example of my species and with my parents' assistance, achieved independence.
Specifically, they pried me from the doorjamb, and rolled me into the street.'' -Fwiffo

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